Change Converter/Charger?

Don Horner

2012 Unity IB
I received my WFCO Ultra III converter/charger yesterday and installed it today. The installation was very easy, except that the mounting box must have been bent a little and the screw holes were very difficult to line up. It took me a few minutes to mount the box to the cabinet, and it was a lot harder and longer to get it straightened out enough to install the access door/cover back over the whole assembly. However, it now looks great and seems to work well.

I bought a "Volt Minder" volt display gadget from Randy at bestconverter.com at the same time. It's not the most sophisticated model on the market, but it suits my needs. Basically, it displays the battery voltage and has an adjustable alarm setting for a low battery. It comes with a cigarette-lighter plug, which is all that's needed to hook it up. Randy said it would be most efficient if connected to one of the 12v leads on the converter, but I had no convenient mounting spot near that. So, I took the cover off the Winegard antenna booster, which also has a 12v outlet, cut the wires on the Volt Minder, and wired it in direct behind the cover plate on the Winegard unit. I mounted the Volt Minder on the same panel as the booster, which is right next to all the other indicators and switches on a Leisure Travel. It shows the voltage when charging and, when the shore power is disconnected, the generator is off and the engine is off, so it is not charging, it shows the battery state in volts. If you are dry camping and the battery reaches the "low battery" state that you program in, it sounds an alarm. Randy suggested 12.2v as the alarm level.

My only other comment is similar to mpsan -- the cooling fan on the WFCO unit comes on really easy and is kinda noisy. The old Parallax fan didn't come on as often and was more quiet. However, it's no worse than the fan on the inverter, and I'll get used to it. My fan comes on when only one flourescent ceiling light is lit -- but the battery was in a pretty low state. It might get better when the battery is fully charged.

I haven't mounted any extra batteries yet, and as much as I want the twin 6v batteries, I'm beginning to re-think that. If I mount them behind the passenger seat, where I originally wanted to, I will face some pretty complex venting issues. Also, I would have to build the battery box. I have an LTV-supplied box for one 12v battery under the rear sofa; I think I may cop-out on the 6v batteries for now, mount that box and add one more 12v battery. That will double my present capacity, and I can get it done quicker.
 

mpsan

New member
Don, we have the same converter. I called Randy about the fan but he has not called me back yet. I bought the second battery box from LTV as I already had one in the rear. The underseat one is gone now and I have two group 31 Lifeline batterys in the rear. The two 6V option is good, but only gives a few more AmpHours...220 vs. 210. But, the 6 Volt is a taller battery and will not fit in the box. So, I went with the 2 12V AGM's.

Now that my AGM's are charged, the Fan only comes on when I have the TV on, and two or more lights are on. My Parallax also never seemed to need the fan, but if going to 55A required a better fan, so be it. I need to ask Randy a question, however. Once the fan comes on, I notice after a bit a strange sound. I turned the TV sound off and noticed that it was the fan going on/off/on/off...sort of a weird way to slow it down. If I turned a light off it stopped. I actually do not care about this, I just want to ask Randy if this is normal. Also, I believe 12.2 V represents 50% discharge and should be put back on shore power, etc.
 

Toyman

New member
You MAY find the 12.2 V alarm a little troublesome. A battery state can only be determined after a period of "rest" on the battery to allow it to stabilize. You may see 12.2V fairly often when a load is on the battery. You will also see some voltage drop due to size and length of the feed wire going to the gage.

Let us know how it works for you?
 

Don Horner

2012 Unity IB
You MAY find the 12.2 V alarm a little troublesome.
i was thinking about that. I've been without the charger/converter for about 3 weeks and have been keeping the house battery charged by running the engine at idle for an hour or two (probably not good for the engine, but I had little choice). I stay in my van 3 to 4 days every week. When I first plugged the Volt Minder into a cigarette lighter, the battery voltage was 11.76! It was in pretty poor shape after all the use I made of it. And, that was without load. There is a way to turn off the audible alarm. Since I have to deliberately put the battery in a resting state (everything off, no shore power) in order to check it, I may just use the Volt Minder as an interesting visual reference unless I am specifically checking the battery state.

Until now, I have not needed the extra battery capacity because we spend most of our time plugged into shore power, somewhere. But, we will be doing some traveling in the next few months that will involve more dry camping, so I need to get more involved with the aux power.
 

Toyman

New member
Yep got the critter, got it installed and am now headed for SOMEPLACE COOL.

One thing I really like about the prosine is that it does (among other things) power management for the entire system. You set the feed breaker size and it manages the feeds to stay within the breaker size. F.E. if I've been out a while and my batteries are down and I plug into a 15A outlet, the charger will go to 100A, but if another AC load comes on, it will throttle back the charger to keep within the 15A limit. I watched this morning as my wife was drying her hair, and the A/C kicked on - the unit went to inverter mode until the A/C had started then when back to the line. I just wish I had 4 Trojan T105's instead of the Optima 31's.
 

Toyman

New member
Oh - it runs the A/C, for a little while - like an hour. Draws 83 amps when running - and the battreies do get hot !
 

KL2BE

Member
I wonder how many amps our LTV takes...even with the Dometic running on 12V? I ask as I have two new group 31 Lifeline AGM's and was down to 12.24 volts after we went to eat in a restaurant!

Dave, W6TGE
I posted this comment on another topic so I hope I'm not irritating anyone by repeating myself.
I think anyone would be quite pleased with the wealth if info provided by a Battery Monitor such as a Trimetric (from Bestconverters for $140 w/o shunts) or the Link 10 (from West Marine for $210 with shunts). It will keep track of every amp that goes into or out of the batteries. Always know exact state of charge (something a volt meter will not do) and the rate of charge or discharge.
Our Link 2000R (it's about $700 and you do not need that much technology on an RV) has helped us get 10 years (and still going strong) out of the Lifeline AGM 8-Ds on our boat (our 4 AGM 8-Ds cost a total of $1,600 so the Link 2000R has been cost-effective).
I'ts VERY nice to be able to tell, in real-time, the exact amperage draw of any device or array of devices.
 

mpsan

New member
Well, as I had posted, the Refer does take more than they show in the books! So far I am OK, but may look into a monitor.
 

Lepapehermann

Cantley,Québec,Canada
Last winter, while in Texas, I replaced my Parallax 7345 with a Progressive Dynamic 4645, not a difficult job..... just take the time to do it right.

PD4645 Basic Specs:
Reverse Battery Protection
Total Charge Management System
Electronic Current Limiting
Low Voltage Protection
Variable Speed Intelligent Cooling Fan
High Voltage Protection
Automatic Thermal Shutdown
The built-in Charge Wizard automatically selects one of four operating modes: BOOST, NORMAL, STORAGE, DESULFATION



I am happy with my choice as I spent one month in different campgrounds around Mexico withouth any problem, always connecting to shoreline when available. This has certainly tested the capabilities of this converter.

Now I have a Parallax 7345 for sale.
 

flemsmith

Member
2005 Free Spirit. Just finished getting the Parallax changed to a WFCO Ultra III WF8955....sorta long story, short version is our AC common wires all melted (after a 2 gal water jug spilled and broke all over the floor and the converter). Since insurance helped pay for the replacement, I had it done at a local repair shop, and they chose the distribution panel... While they were at it I had a Trimetrics 2025 monitoring system installed, and I feel much more confident that I can tell what's going on now than I ever have before. I even proved it by running the generator while dry camping without making sure the 12v DC power disconnect was in the right position to recharge the chassis battery, ended up draining the battery down too low to start the generator the next morning. Now I know that when the generator is running or the shore power line is plugged in, I have to look at the amps being supplied to the battery to make sure it's getting charged. I do have a problem though; the alternator is not charging the chassis battery at all. I'm thinking that I need to find the isolator switch and make sure it's still working ok. Think it's under the driver's seat. The LTV parts guy in Canada tells me that's a Chrysler installed item.

Also I have an extra Optima battery beneath the passenger seat which I assumed was in parallel with the lead acid Interstate in the back....But from watching the Trimetrics it seems the Optima is in parallel with the Van engine battery, and I do remember the original owner kept it in a storage lot, and told me he added a battery to help make sure he could start it...So I can also monitor the voltage (no current) to the Optima, and it clearly shows 13-14 volts when the engine is running, but the Interstate (rear chassis battery) voltage is unaffected.

Roy in Az
 

KL2BE

Member
The Parallax that comes on the LTV definitely needs replacement with a 3-stage smart charger (why such an unsophisticated piece of crap on a $78K - $90K machine? :rant: ).
My first project upon buying my '07 Free Spirit was to install an Ultra III kit with WFCO charger from Bestconverter.com.
The WFCO did not perform well :thumbdown:. Charging times were long. My Xantrex Link 10 battery monitor showed that the WFCO NEVER went to a higher voltage charging phase of 14 + volts. It charged at a straight, never varying 13.6 volts; period. Not so much as to cook the AGM batteries, but not enough to charge in a reasonable amount of time either. An internet search confirmed that others had the same poor experience with the WFCO ; the consensus seemed to be that the WFCO was not a true three-stage "smart" unit.
I trashed the WFCO and installed a Xantrex. It has worked very well :clapping: .
I discussed the inadaquacy of the WFCO with "Randy" at Bestconverter. He said there were problems with some, but not all, WFCOs.
He said there was also a high failure rate with the Xantrex model I installed, but fortunately mine has performed well (as have all the many Xantrex products I installed on my sailboat). Randy seems to like Iota at present.
If you have installed a WFCO, I would recommend watching your battery monitor to see if it indeed charges at a "bulk" rate of 14+ volts when the batteries are down 30-40 amp/hrs and the charger has just been plugged in. If your WFCO does not change charging voltage, call whoever you bought it from and talk about a return/exchange. Talk to Randy about his recommendation for the best 3-stage smart charger.
 
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flemsmith

Member
Thanks for the info in your last post re: WFCO....we just got back from a 3 week trip into the mountains, rig did great as long as we were plugged in to AC, but when dry camping, I found out a few things I did not like or understand: the DC panel pulls 0.9 amps continuous in order to keep the refrig running when on LP gas, seems like a lot of current, but without the trimetrics monitor, I didn't know what the current drain used to be before the charger was replaced. (The heater/AC temperature controller is also on, as well as the CO monitor). Mebbe that's normal..? Obviously, I'm not trying to measure intermittent drain when running the water pump, or the water heater. Also, the passenger seat battery does not appear to be connected to the rear chassis battery at all (I think we lost that during the repair work). But passenger seat battery is getting charged when the engine runs, so the isolator sw/ under the driver's seat is working ok. It's just that the rear chassis battery does not get charged by the alternator from the engine, only from the generator or from shore AC power. And the WFCO is only putting out 13.6v max, and running the generator in morning and evening during allowed generator times is not enough to replace all the charge lost during the 24 hr continuous drain, so after the third day we couldn't start the generator (chassis battery was too weak). It's a 2005, exposed to desert heat, so I think I'm gonna replace the chassis battery (original Interstate) with an AGM, wire the positive terminal of the passenger seat battery into the charger (which should be the same as the pos output of the rear chassis battery), and while I'm at it, I believe I'll add another AGM battery kit in the rear under the sofa on the passenger side in parallel with the new chassis battery I use to replace the Interstate. I know the current I measure will not be accurate unless I run a negative cable from the passenger seat battery all the way to the rear and make sure all three are in parallel, with the current shunt going to the frame from the common neg parallel point, but I'm not sure it's worth that trouble. Assuming that sounds correct, my only questions are: is 0.9amp reasonable for continuous drain when dry camping? Should I be worried about the fact that when running the generator or plugged into shore power, I don't see more than 13.6v? Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer advice. roy
 

KL2BE

Member
I'll comment first on the charger and later (in a day or two) on the battery drain after I play around with my van to isolate the propane refer and the CO detector and Propane detector.

I too have noticed an unacceptably high drain from the CO and Propane detectors so I want to do something about it, but I need to quantify it first with my Link 10 battery monitor; and seperate those drains from the refer.

As far as your WFCO charger, it sounds very much like you have the same problem I had :cry:. It is not performing like a 2-stage or 3-stage charger. Preforming properly, a multi-stage charger should register 14.1 V to 14.3V within a minute or two after you plug into shore power if you battery is even 10-15 Amp/hours down from full. It should stay above 14V until the charging is almost complete and the current going into the battry is down to 1 or 2 amps. Then is should switch to 13.5V and stay at that "float" voltage as long as it is plugged in.
The constant 13.6V you are seeing with your WFCO (same as mine) is bad times two; just a tad too much for most fully charged AGM batteries which like a float charge between 13.2V and and 13.5V (depending on brand and model) and more than a tad to little for efficient charging of a depleted battery. At only 13.6Vs, the charging time for your house bank depleted to 1/2 it's capacity will take many hours longer than at 14+V. If you are ever trying to charge your batteries with a gen-set after 3 or 4 days off the grid, the lack of 14V charging will be particularly vexing as no one wants to run a gen-set for 3-6 hours or more; and still not be charged-up :bash: .
Did your WFCO come from Bestconverter? Randy admitted to me he had some (many?) which did not function properly. I was not seeking a return or refund as I had already installed a Xantrex unit I bought at West Marine for "cost" or about 1/2 retail. If you got it there, I would explore the idea of a refund no matter how long it has been. After all, it almost certainly did not work from the start and you had no way of knowing until you started watching your battery monitor or noticing the lengthy charge times.
Good luck :cheers:.
 

KL2BE

Member
Results of my testing small scale electrical draws surprised me :hmmm:.
Using my Link 10 Battery monitor, I isolated specific items by pulling the fuses on the affected circuits and comparing before and after amperage draw. Measurements are to the nearest 1/10th amp.
Dometic refrigerator on propane mode: .1 amp (or 2.4 amp/hours per day).
CO and Propane detectors: .1 amp (another 2.4 amp/hours per day).
Control Panel: .6 amp (14.4 amp/hours per day).
That's a whopping 20 amp/hours per day :eek: ; which accounts for my batteries being down 55 amp/hours when I returned to the trail-head after a recent 3-day trek over the Chilkoot Pass from Skagway, AK to Lake Bennett, BC.
The Control Panel seems to be the real culprit that will drain the house bank if the camper is left unattended for a week or so :frown:.
I have not yet figured out why the Control Panel is drawing so much juice :thinking: . It is not the selenoid that turns off the house power as the selenoid still operates when the Control Panel fuse is pulled :idunno:.
I'll work on it and report back if I figure it out. For now I know to pull the Control Panel fuse if I'm leaving the van for a few days and I want to keep the house-power on so as to keep my food cold. Thank goodness the refrigerator is not the power hog, so at least my beer won't have to get dragged into the problem :clapping: :cheers: . If I can't isolate the matter further, I may simply install an in-line toggle switch near the Control Panel so I don't have to mess with the fuse. I'll then just turn on the panel when I need to check tank guages and operate the several switches on the panel.
Further thought are invited.
 

aljimenez

'13 LTV Serenity on '12 3
Results of my testing small scale electrical draws surprised me :hmmm:.
Control Panel: .6 amp (14.4 amp/hours per day).
Thanks for sharing those tests. I am as surprised by the control Panel. There is a detector up there in mine, and I wonder if that is the culprit in yours. I have a hard time imagining those test switches drawing any current. Can you share what is in your control panel? I will have to do your tests on my Pleasure Way... Al
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Are there any lights in the panel?
The panel i got at West Marine has small neon type lights for each switch position to indicate an active circuit. Wiring a switch between those lights and ground enables turning them off. Ghost loads are very frustrating to locate and eliminate.
Just a thought.
Jef
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
The panel i got at West Marine has small neon type lights for each switch position to indicate an active circuit.
If they are truly neon lights, then your inverter has to be running to achieve the (at least) 65 volts needed to illuminate a neon (NE-2) bulb.
So i'd blame the inverter as an unneeded excess idle-time load (neon NE-2 lamps draw truly miniscule power to illuminate).
(i realize that cedarsanctum is not KL2BE, who has the 0.6 amp panel draw)

Folks with panels like these might ask/demand a circuit diagram from the manufacturer/vendor
--dick
 

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