Document PDF Now Available - NCV3 906

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Boxster1971

2023 Sprinter 2500 144wb AWD
That's an interesting article. Too bad Mercedes doesn't provide an indication of the DPF Regeneration cycle since they seem to think it can effect oil quality if terminated early. Many other diesel vehicles have a warning light to tell you when regeneration is in progress.

I set up my Ultra-Gauge with the EGT temps and a warning alarm at 1,000 degF. Now I always know when the regeneration is occurring.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Re: Document PDF Now Available

Bob
My dear Watson!
First thanks for going the last mile to post this document!

Now I must confess its not really new to me as a revelation; I have seen it before!--well something like it from Isuzu and the NPR.
When they brought out the new exhaust pollution control systems on their medium duty trucks a similar bulletin was floated about among us wheel tapper and shunter folk. In other words ("thems that get grubby fut livin')!

The same basic mantra in the text applied then and that was for NAS trucks not them Latinos down south!

So to conclude I have always been skeptical of 20K mile service interval claims that are to be exercised across the board.
Simply put & because Joe Blow Uncle Tom Cobbly uses his van different than neighbor Dan Steward and all thems that drive their Sprinters in the Floral Dance there can be no real norm.
Everyone one should be doing oil analysis!
All the best
Dennis
 
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
Re: Document PDF Now Available

That's an interesting article. Too bad Mercedes doesn't provide an indication of the DPF Regeneration cycle since they seem to think it can effect oil quality if terminated early. Many other diesel vehicles have a warning light to tell you when regeneration is in progress.

I set up my Ultra-Gauge with the EGT temps and a warning alarm at 1,000 degF. Now I always know when the regeneration is occurring.
I guess I will be forced to to do the same. Buy a Ultra Guage or equivalent.
According to my owners manual the dot matrix, multi-functioning display should alert when active regeneration is in progress. However, it has not triggered in 12,000 miles. That could mean one of two things, the system (ASSYST and exhaust after treatment) are functioning properly or not functioning? In addition, ASSYST has not alerted of required maintenance based on time interval. Perhaps, requires a re-flashed with the latest firmware version? But then again the document says this is normal? Dennis described it best I guess as "Quirky."

The vehicle remains under warranty. However, as most of us are already aware, dealerships do not automatically translate into repair excellence. Do I roll the dice, take it to the dealer and risk possibility of an incompetent fooling around and making things worse or just leave well enough alone? The old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But then again it may be broke?

Also, the document mentions oil changes after manual regeneration and they would not be honored under warranty or good will. I would have to conclude, Manual or forced, as well as, Active DPF regeneration must adversely affect oil quality? To what extent, who knows? May be prudent, when possible, to schedule oil change immediately after manual DPF regeneration?

I use a lot of ? marks because I have a lot of questions.

Bob
 
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Old Crows

Calypso 2014 View Profile
Not to be Crow picky...... "Latin America?" & is there a date associated with this guidance??????

Agree with Dennis... OA if you are worried, unsure, concerned, or nervous about your oil condition...

Question for Dennis. Mother implies implies that there is an oil condition monitor in addition to the HI/LO, miles/time. True? Not true? If yes...Is it still used on newer models?
 
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D

Deleted member 50714

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Not to be Crow picky...... "Latin America?" & is there a date associated with this guidance??????

Agree with Dennis... OA if you are worried, unsure, concerned, or nervous about your oil condition...

Question for Dennis. Mother implies implies that there is an oil condition monitor in addition to the HI/LO, miles/time. True? Not true? If yes...Is it still used on newer models?
Hi Old Crow:

I think you hit upon the operative word "Guidance." The document is dated May 2012. Although, the document is intended for the Latin American market, I cannot see any legitimate reason why it wouldn't apply to the USA market. Especially, if vehicles are similarly equipped with exhaust after treatment systems. Although, poor fuel quality would be important consideration.

As far as oil analysis is concerned. For my personal vehicle it is not an issue. Based on my knowledge and experience, the document, other information and recommendations of three reputable members of this forum, I'm will diligently change my oil every 5,000 miles or one year whatever occurs first. However, if I was a Fleet owner it may be cost-effective to conduct routine oil analysis to establish a baseline mileage.

Bob 1.2
 
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lindenengineering

Well-known member
Not to be Crow picky...... "Latin America?" & is there a date associated with this guidance??????

Agree with Dennis... OA if you are worried, unsure, concerned, or nervous about your oil condition...

Question for Dennis. Mother implies implies that there is an oil condition monitor in addition to the HI/LO, miles/time. True? Not true? If yes...Is it still used on newer models?
For me its just guidance!
I want to know what is going on in the engine and the TBA of a given sample versus mileage at drain point.
This posture is based upon experiences gained from running fleets. The results I got from time to time sometimes confounded my employers & then sometimes I got "doesn't surprise us one bit" from Engineering!
Dennis
 

owner

Oz '03 316CDI LWB ex-Ambo Patient Transport
The oil sensor is a combination of 3 sensors in one... Level, temperature, and capacitance. The capacitance is a measure of the oil quality. It's been there at least since om612.
 

Old Crows

Calypso 2014 View Profile
Thanks Bob,

Well 4 model years and mechanical, computer and lubricant improvements can make a difference in service intervals. Today's oil is NOT your Pappy's oil he used in his Buick. Yes, the type of use may affect your OCI. However, the OM-642 V6 has a 12+ qt. capacity....increased capacity means greater resistance to breakdown, contamination and dilution. The MB spec 229.51/2 oils are engineered for greater longevity and performance. That said, they can easily make 10K...and likely much more.

Longer OCIs save resources and recycling effort as well as saving you $$$$$$. I'd suggest that before doing your 5K OC that you consider getting an OA with TBN to assess how much more "life" remains in the oil. You may be surprised.

FWIW, 'time intervals' are a pretty worthless data point, especially with an RV that gets run hard for a time and then stabled for awhile. If you have a concern...do an OA.
 

lindenengineering

Well-known member
Well Owner

Judging by the crap I see put into these engines and what I see and test after drain out from time to time I would say quite categorically that it ain't doing a very good job of indicting Quality!

Its an indication of "something", and I will leave it at that!

You see you have to put quality in I suppose to get some modicum of quality out!~
Dennis
 

Old Crows

Calypso 2014 View Profile
Well Owner

Judging by the crap I see put into these engines and what I see and test after drain out from time to time I would say quite categorically that it ain't doing a very good job of indicting Quality!

Its an indication of "something", and I will leave it at that!

You see you have to put quality in I suppose to get some modicum of quality out!~
Dennis
Kinda makes you question that Chermann engineering. Maybe that "capacitance" deal became a engineering dead end .... Sort of an oil sensor appendix if you will.

With all their smarts you would think that Benz would come up with a sensor, processor and algorithm that would accurately measure oil quality. Apparently, GM and Honda have legs up in that area. Regrettably, my Toyotas are the same as our 76 Honda Accord .... A miles meter. Sigh!
 
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
Not to be Crow picky...... "Latin America?"
After reading the document for over the 10th time, I just realized it excludes Latin America. For example:

"906 except code (ZL3) National version for Latin America."

To some forum members it may seem I am beating a dead horse. However, I feel compelled to persist because the facts show Mercedes-Benz is not acting in "Good Faith" with respect to their advertising promoting extended oil change intervals. A promotion contradicted by MB's own documentation. Specifically, document S100.20-D-0029A. Also, I have discovered other inconsistencies.

As Dennis mentioned in the corporate hierarchy. Often times engineering plays second fiddle or is subordinate to marketing executives decisions.

Please, examine the document carefully as it is pregnant with information.

Yes, oil analysis is the only way to scientifically determine oil service life. It's curious of the hundreds of forum members, I am not aware of any sharing results?

Anyway, just hate to see people hoodwinked by corporate pirates.

Oh, and there's is nothing wrong with being picky! :smirk:

Bob
 

avanti

2022 Ford Transit 3500
OK. I have tried SO hard to stay out of this ongoing tirade. But I have gotten enough value from this list over the years that I feel some responsibility to correct the record when a grossly misleading piece of non-evidence is prominently and repeatedly characterized as fact. It is a common rhetorical trick to point at an obscure and hard-to-interpret document and claim loudly that it says things that it doesn't actually say, knowing that most people won't bother to read it.

I took OP's advice and actually studied this one. Here is my analysis:

This is an out-of-context excerpt (page 5.4.12) from an unspecified and unattributed document. The source and date are unspecified. OP claims that it is dated 2012. This may be true, but it is curious since the document states that "engine oil replacement interval has been raised to 40,000 km." That would be almost 25,000 miles. Exactly which Sprinter model specified a 25K mile oil change interval in 2012?

The provided text consists only of bulleted items preceded by little "i" dingbats. I am not sure what they mean, but they are typically used to mark informational side comments to more authoritative text. Where is that text?

The document is obviously a shaky translation from some other language (presumably German). It thus contains non-sentences and other ambiguities. But, let's see what we can make of what it actually says:

1.jpg

My gloss:
The nominal Sprinter oil change interval has been raised to 40K km (~25K miles). However, your Sprinter's maintenance computer may tell you when to change the oil, based on operating conditions. This can go as high as 50K km or as low as 5K km.

My notes:
--No US-spec'd Sprinter that I am aware of specifies a 25K service interval

2.jpg

My gloss:
Your Sprinter may or may not have the aforementioned maintenance computer (ASSYST--Option code JW6). If you do have one and it tells you to change the oil at a reduced interval, you may still wait until the specified interval to perform other milage-based required service.

Even if you do not have Option JW6, you STILL ("in principle") may have to replace your oil at a reduced interval if the above-mentioned extreme conditions apply. You are on your own, though. The instrument cluster is not malfunctioning by not reminding you (you simply don't have JW6), so you don't have to replace your instrument cluster.

My notes:
--Neither the 2014 nor the 2015 Options Handbook list the JW6 option code. Older versions do. Such vehicles still tell you when to change the oil, so I infer that the former option is now standard equipment. It is also possible that they dropped the oil-quality testing technology. I don't know.

3.jpg

My gloss:
Regeneration is necessary to clear the DPF. This happens automatically. This involves extra fuel, so it can lead to fuel (i.e., "particles of unburnt hydrocarbons") entering the crankcase.

My notes:
--This implies that conditions that lead to frequent regeneration may impact oil lifetime.
--I am assuming that the "particles of unburnt hydrocarbons" referred to are molecules of fuel. Not clear, though.

4.jpg

My gloss:
You can tell if you are getting too much fuel in your oil, because your oil level will rise, which you can see on your "engine oil level display." If this happens, you must reduce your oil change interval, or it can damage your engine. This issue may be counteracted by running your engine at load every 500km for 20 minutes.

5.jpg

My gloss:
The above-described issue "is contingent" upon early termination of filter regeneration. This can happen either (a) by switching off the engine during a regen; or (b) the regen being cancelled because the engine could not maintain burn-off temperature. If this happens, there will have to be additional regens which implies additional fuel.

If you throw parts at your engine trying address behavior that is caused by the above conditions rather than by a technical malfunction, we will not cover them under warranty.

If, because of these considerations, you change the oil and then do a manual regen, the oil change is not covered under warranty, either.

You should explain all this to your customer.

My notes:
--This is unclear, but I am guessing that by "is contingent", they mean "is exacerbated
by".



My summary of this document:
Change you oil when your vehicle tells you to, and you will be fine.

N.B: I am NOT saying that is what you should do (although it is what I do). I am merely saying that that is what this document says to do. As far as I can see, it provides no support at all for the thesis that changing your oil more often that the ASSYST system tells you to is desirable.
 
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D

Deleted member 50714

Guest
Hi Pete:

I am pleased you have taken the time to respond to an important issue. It is important to listen to the opinions of others. Especially, concerning an issue that could be of detriment to Mercedes-Benz owners. You have my pledge I will not resort to ad hominem when responding.

:cheers:
Bob
 

Jackies Dog Grooming

2016 NCV3 144" 4 banger
After reading avanti's breakdown of the article, I realized that I fit in the category of "short distant service and high idling phases". So it is recommended that I get it out on the freeway for 20 minutes every 500km (310 miles). I do remember reading that here at one time by members.

What I don't understand is why would these condition reduce how often I change my oil? Wouldn't it mean I need to do the oil changes more often? Somewhere in the back of my mind I already decided to change the oil at 10k instead of 20k just to err on the side of caution. I don't understand why having fresh new oil more often isn't best.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
After reading avanti's breakdown of the article, I realized that I fit in the category of "short distant service and high idling phases". So it is recommended that I get it out on the freeway for 20 minutes every 500km (310 miles). I do remember reading that here at one time by members.

What I don't understand is why would these condition reduce how often I change my oil? Wouldn't it mean I need to do the oil changes more often? Somewhere in the back of my mind I already decided to change the oil at 10k instead of 20k just to err on the side of caution. I don't understand why having fresh new oil more often isn't best.
Low exhaust gas temperatures created by extended idling are not conducive to effective DPF regens. This means the regen will take longer which means more fuel consumed. Mercedes uses fuel injection after the combustion cycleto increase exhaust gas temperatures. This after injection of fuel can sometimes get into oil especially during idling conditions. These conditions increase the rate at which the oil is contaminated. Essentially what you're doing is adding engine cycles which are not counted by the mileage counter. For example an hour of idling could be equivalent to 50 or 60 miles of driving.

For whatever percentage of your total fuel consumption is used in idling I would reduce your oil change interval by twice that amount. For example if you burn 20% of your fuel idling I would decrease your oil change interval by 40%. (Up to 30% of the total fuel consumption. Anything above that will require regular oil testing as the extended idling will have deleterious effects) This can be mitigated if you drive regularly on the highway after every single idle period for 20 minutes. This allows the engine to enter regen during high load. This is much more efficient at clearing the DPF.

The other important factor in the oil contamination is soot loading. During idling the EGR percentage is much higher as a lot more inert gases are needed to keep the NOX production down. Higher levels of EGR means more soot is recirculated back into intake and has an opportunity to get into the oil. This is the other reason that extended idling increases soot loading which is a major factor in oil life.

If you're idling is less than 1 or 2% of your total fuel consumption there is no need to adjust your oil change intervals.
 
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Jackies Dog Grooming

2016 NCV3 144" 4 banger
Low exhaust gas temperatures created by extended idling are not conducive to effective DPF regens. This means the regen will take longer which means more fuel consumed. Mercedes uses fuel injection after the combustion cycleto increase exhaust gas temperatures. This after injection of fuel can sometimes get into oil especially during idling conditions. These conditions increase the rate at which the oil is contaminated. Essentially what you're doing is adding engine cycles which are not counted by the mileage counter. For example an hour of idling could be equivalent to 50 or 60 miles of driving.

For whatever percentage of your total fuel consumption is used in idling I would reduce your oil change interval by twice that amount. For example if you burn 20% of your fuel idling I would decrease your oil change interval by 40%. (Up to 30% of the total fuel consumption. Anything above that will require regular oil testing as the extended idling will have deleterious effects) This can be mitigated if you drive regularly on the highway after every single idle period for 20 minutes. This allows the engine to enter regen during high load. This is much more efficient at clearing the DPF.

The other important factor in the oil contamination is soot loading. During idling the EGR percentage is much higher as a lot more inert gases are needed to keep the NOX production down. Higher levels of EGR means more soot is recirculated back into intake and has an opportunity to get into the oil. This is the other reason that extended idling increases soot loading which is a major factor in oil life.

If you're idling is less than 1 or 2% of your total fuel consumption there is no need to adjust your oil change intervals.
1. From what I've read, 1 hour of idling on the 4 cylinder uses around 0.4 gallons of fuel. I think I got that info from a grooming van builder. Not sure how accurate, but that's the usage I've been using in my cost estimations.
2. A standard groom is 45 minutes to an hour for one dog. So each groom gets an hour of idling before driving to the next appointment.

So it sounds like I need to open it up on the freeway every few hundred miles to burn off soot and sludge.

You said: "For whatever percentage of your total fuel consumption is used in idling I would reduce your oil change interval by twice that amount. For example if you burn 20% of your fuel idling I would decrease your oil change interval by 40%"
I'm still not understanding why I'd reduce my oil change intervals? If I'm diluting the oil with fuel, as in changing the oil's viscosity, wouldn't I want to change it more often?
 

Jackies Dog Grooming

2016 NCV3 144" 4 banger
Also, I've never seen an indication that the DPF was in regen mode. But I've noticed it happen twice now since I've owned it. The first time scared me. I smelled burning oily smell and the pinging sound like a very hot exhaust manifold/cat. Yesterday was the second time. Unfortunatally I was just going to Home Depot and back home (5 miles'ish). So it probably didn't have a chance to run it's full regen cycle.
 

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