All electric camper

rvan

New member
Newbie here with some electrical questions:

Planning a camper conversion that will be used for camping and road trips.
Like to keep things real simple: No AC, no refrig, no generator, no TV, Furnace, no DHW.

Like the concept of all electric but do not know if it will work.

Electric: 250+AH Battery with 1500w inverter.

12V: Lights (Minimal), Water Pump, Charge: Cell & Camera, Computer(DVD), I-Pod and Fans

1500w Inverter: Induction cooktop (one burner), 660w microwave, hairdryer and electric blanket (10 minute preheat only).

Questions: Can I use computer with 12V only?
Is inverter switched on and off? If no load is it automatically off?
Is it correct that I could only run one 110V item at a time?
Which is more efficient, 12v or 110V electric blanket?
Will 1500w inverter run microwave or induction cooktop?
Do roof mounted solar panels hurt gas mileage?


Thanks,
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Newbie here with some electrical questions:

Planning a camper conversion that will be used for camping and road trips.
Like to keep things real simple: No AC, no refrig, no generator, no TV, Furnace, no DHW.

Like the concept of all electric but do not know if it will work.

Electric: 250+AH Battery with 1500w inverter.

12V: Lights (Minimal), Water Pump, Charge: Cell & Camera, Computer(DVD), I-Pod and Fans

1500w Inverter: Induction cooktop (one burner), 660w microwave, hairdryer and electric blanket (10 minute preheat only).

Questions: Can I use computer with 12V only?
Is inverter switched on and off? If no load is it automatically off?
Is it correct that I could only run one 110V item at a time?
Which is more efficient, 12v or 110V electric blanket?
Will 1500w inverter run microwave or induction cooktop?
Do roof mounted solar panels hurt gas mileage?


Thanks,
I can't answer all your questions, but i can try for a few.

I personally have tried to run everything off 12V. That means no microwave or other heavy electric heating devices. A typical hair dryer, for instance uses at least 1500 watts and would max out the inverter you have chosen, as well as run the battery dead in very short order. Same could be said for the electric blanket, depending on the current draw. You need to look at how many amps or watts each device draws, and calculate how many amp hours it will take to run those appliances. Never run your battery below 50%, so a 250 AH battery is good for 125AH.

What kind of computer is it? Most have 12V adapters available, i have even found one for the Macbook Pro now.

A solar panel on the roof has very little drag because it's usually mounted so close to the roof. The gain from the power source makes up for the small drag it produces, IMHO.

I do have some 110V heating and cooking devices on board, but only use them when plugged into shore power. We do have a refrigerator that runs off the battery which is charged by the solar panel. That would be my wife's favorite item, right after the diesel fueled stove/heater.
Hope this helps.
Jef
 

Hit The Road Jack

2006 Roadhouse Sprinter
Newbie here with some electrical questions:

Planning a camper conversion that will be used for camping and road trips.
Like to keep things real simple: No AC, no refrig, no generator, no TV, Furnace, no DHW.

Like the concept of all electric but do not know if it will work.

Electric: 250+AH Battery with 1500w inverter.

12V: Lights (Minimal), Water Pump, Charge: Cell & Camera, Computer(DVD), I-Pod and Fans

1500w Inverter: Induction cooktop (one burner), 660w microwave, hairdryer and electric blanket (10 minute preheat only).

Questions: Can I use computer with 12V only?
Is inverter switched on and off? If no load is it automatically off?
Is it correct that I could only run one 110V item at a time?
Which is more efficient, 12v or 110V electric blanket?
Will 1500w inverter run microwave or induction cooktop?
Do roof mounted solar panels hurt gas mileage?


Thanks,
Welcome rvan, this site will answer many of your questions...:thumbup:

http://www.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/12volt/12volt.htm
 

ches

Active member
We have never installed solar panels but have checked out others hoping to add them at a future date. Some things to consider: (1) Allow your panels to tilt for the low angle of the winter sun. (2) Be able to take off your panels to position them on the ground when you are parked in the shade. Versatility is good. In the summer you may not want to park you van in the sun. Don't attache your panels permanently as the may not last forever. Good luck.
 

d_bertko

Active member
Newbie here with some electrical questions:

Planning a camper conversion that will be used for camping and road trips.
Like to keep things real simple: No AC, no refrig, no generator, no TV, Furnace, no DHW.

Like the concept of all electric but do not know if it will work.

Electric: 250+AH Battery with 1500w inverter.

12V: Lights (Minimal), Water Pump, Charge: Cell & Camera, Computer(DVD), I-Pod and Fans

1500w Inverter: Induction cooktop (one burner), 660w microwave, hairdryer and electric blanket (10 minute preheat only).

Questions: Can I use computer with 12V only?
Is inverter switched on and off? If no load is it automatically off?
Is it correct that I could only run one 110V item at a time?
Which is more efficient, 12v or 110V electric blanket?
Will 1500w inverter run microwave or induction cooktop?
Do roof mounted solar panels hurt gas mileage?

Thanks,
A 1500w inverter is probably sufficient as long as it is pure sine wave. A msw inverter might cause microwave and (ac version) electric blanket problems. Your computer/dvd and rechargers are likely 50w or less and not too important if you don't run them more than a couple of hours.

Even very efficient inverters consume some power at idle---an easy-to-use power switch location is strongly recommended.

I've got the 2000w Prosine and that gives me some useful extra-devices margin when I run my 1100w-input 650w-output microwave or the up-to-1200w induction burner. (I see that Sunpentown offers a 1500w version as well as my 1200w version. Pretty happy with mine, toss-up about buying the 1500w if done again.)

Your 250ah bank is a little undersized for the 1500w draw of a hairdryer or other big draw. You might get a little voltage drop. Xantrex is conservative but I followed their recommendation of 400ah+ for my 2000w Prosine 2.0. You do not want to be at the minimum since batteries degrade eventually. And more ah means more flexible camp use.

And note that a 24hr, low-watt draw like a portable Engel fridge matches up well with the big bank you need for a few minutes of high-watt appliances. A nice future upgrade option for you.

We don't use an electric blanket but a lot of campers prefer a more efficient heating pad underneath. We use the furnace at night here and there since a good down comforter works so well.

Advice about heat: our Airtronic D2 diesel furnace is very, very satisfying. Electrically efficient. sips diesel, eliminates installed propane for us. The use at night is nice but not strictly necessary. It is the daytime use where it is really appreciated. My wife happily works on the laptop for hours while I'm paddling whitewater. It is a very different camping experience to not be cold if you need to spend time inside.

And the second-favorite item is the Fantastic Fan when it's a bit too warm.

My take on rooftop solar: A car loses around 5-7% mpg at highway speed with a roofrack bars installed. And mpg also go down for a car at about the rate of 1 mpg for every extra 250lbs. So a solar panel probably costs in the ballpark of 250 gal of diesel over 100k miles of highspeed driving. Solar is very nice if you sit still in camp a lot and park in the sun most of the time. I'm mostly a shade camper, recharge with alternator miles frequently, drive fast mostly, and carry boats on my roof. I think extra batteries are more cost-efficient for my use.

Panels cost $5/watt when I did my conversion. About half that now with a good deal. I'll add a panel when the cost makes it to $1/watt in two years.

Dan
 

davidnar

New member
Thanks Dan for your comments. My wife and I use our 2008 Sprinter also for camping, traveling and some hauling. We did purchase an Engle portable refrigerator (I think 45 quart) and it fits between the front seats and plugs into the cigarette lighter (power outlet). Ours came with the dual batteries which is nice and I have not even noticed a change in auxiliary battery power when camped for up to two days. The engle is very efficient and very quiet and works even when not level. The take out basket is nice when we get home and want to clean out and put things in the house refrigerator. I second your opinion on the fantastic fan, they are fantastic. I will be checking into the Airtronic D2 diesel furnace. Dave
 

Oldfartt

Active member
Hi rvan,

1. HP produce a 12v to 15 thro to 19v selectable power adapter for your laptop computer. This is the preferred method as if you use a 1500w inverter, it would be very inefficient use of your battery capacity.
2. Depends on inverter manufacturer, however it will still draw a small amount of standing current if it is not switched off.
3. Depends on the size of inverter and battery, but with a 1500w inverter generally you would only be able to run one heavy current appliance at a time.
4. Electric blankets are 100% efficient whether 110v or 12v. The issue comes down to other losses in the distribution system of getting power to the blanket. If you use the inverter to run your 110V electric blanket, typically 100w or less load, then there are considerable losses in running the inverter. Much better to run the electric blanket off 12v.
5. Lights.. use LED lights, the current drain on these for the same light output as an incandescent light is 10% and 20% lower than a fluorescent lamp.
Water pump uses about 3 amps when running. As you normally are not running the pump for more than a few seconds at a time, the pump is not a signficant user of battery energy.
6. Charging small appliances... use a small inverter, say 60 to 100watts for these as it is most inefficient to use a 1500w inverter for this use. Run fans off 12v.
7. Inverter to run microwave and induction hob. Inverters are rated for a completely resistive load. some do have a short term rating which is higher than the continuous rating. Microwaves and inductive hobs have very high inrush currents. This requires an inverter rated at least 1.5 to 2 times larger than the appliance rating.
8. Roof mounted solar panels may affect fuel consumption but not very significantly... say 1%. Compare the area of the front of the vehicle to the forward face of the solar panel!! Ches makes good valid points, but it depends on where you are travelling to. If you are not going above about 40 degrees North then mounting solar panels permanently horizontal is OK. Allow for about 10% increase in size to correct for the area loss due to not facing directly to the sun. Do you want to constantly be moving the panel to get maximum charge?!!! If you mount the panel on the roof then ensure that it is spaced about 1 inch above the roof to allow airflow under it, as solar panels lose their conversion efficiency when hot.

My advise on the high power devices is dont fit them. Cedarsanctum has made very valid points here.

Batteries and charging... A conventional liquid lead acid deep cycle battery can only be charged to about 75 to 80% from the engine alternator or solar panel with a conventional regulator. As Cedarsanctum says, they should not be discharged below 50%. That means that your battery only has a useful energy storage of 25 to 30% !!! This is why so many installations fail early. To fix this problem, use an agm or gel battery and a solar regulator which has MPPT capability. (Maximum power point transfer) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_point_tracker

This will charge a gel battery to 100% and the gel battery can be discharged to 30% giving you a useful capacity of 70%!!

Also use a single 12v battery with the capacity required instead of two or more batteries in parrellel. Batteries in parrellel will not fully charge equally as the internal resistance of each battery may be different. particularly over time. Batteries in series are OK as the same amount of current will flow through both. ie 2 x 6v. However they tend to be dearer than a single battey of the same total Amphour capacity.

One last point. Wiring... Ensure that the wire size to each appliance is adequate for the job. Use the rule of thumb that the voltage drop from the battery to the appliance when running should not exceed 3%. At 12v this equates to 0.36Volts.

Whew!!! I think that is enough for today.
Hope this helps
Cheers Ross
 

Diamondsea

New member
Re electric blanket. I burned out two electric blanket controllers on boats that had modified sine wave inverters. Definitely use a true sine wave inverter.
 

glasseye

Well-known member
Also re electric blanket: An underpad is far more efficient and far nicer to sleep with than an overtop electric blanket. I run mine at full for about ten minutes before bed, then turn it off. :hugs:
 

rvan

New member
Thanks for all the helpful responses!

The hairdryer, microwave and electric blanket were just bribes to get my girlfriend out of a hotel.
Also I figured about 10-20% of the time I would have access to 110V.
As a builder who does super efficent homes we have had good luck with all electric homes (with PV solar).

So it seems there are two directions I could go:

1) Stay all electric and upgrade battery (gel) and inverter.
Minimize use of hairdryer and use 12v heating pad instead of 110v electric blanket.
Run computer off 12v. Accept one appliance at a time (no problem).

2) Save a fortune on batteries & inverters and go with a propane cookstove, drop the hairdryer and microwave.
Have 10 lb propane tank and cooktop for outside use but did not like using it inside, which is the reason for induction cooktop.
Would really only use it inside for coffee or soup, most cooking would be outside.

Will think about the diesel heater as a future option (any way it could be a hairdryer???).

Thanks again :thumbup:
 
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220629

Well-known member
RVan,
Thats the way to go, and use the girlfriend as an occasional heater:lol:

Cheers
Ross
Any man considering this method of heating should be aware that there are some very real reliability considerations.:hmmm:

* The heater needs 24 hour maintenance even if only periodic use is anticipated.
* In most cases this heater will not function when in the close proximity of similar model heaters. Often just looking at similar models will cause your heater to become very cold and dysfunctional.
* This heater can be quite volatile under certain conditions.
* You will not be able to plug into the heater anywhere you want to or as often as you would like.
* If you are successful at reproducing similar heaters within your original heater, the original unit will cease to work for you during the actual construction process.
* It will be necessary to occasionally feed the heater at fancy locations to keep it properly functioning.
* There is a 28 day maintenance interval that is difficult to ignore.
* As they age these heaters may develop an odd rhythmic rattling sound at night, uncontrollable temperature spikes anytime, and occasional odd smells.
* If you should foolishly decide to use another heater when visiting other locations learn to sleep with one eye open.

Hope this does some good.:smirk: AP/vic
 
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rvan

New member
Any man considering this method of heating should be aware that there are some very real reliability considerations.:hmmm:

* The heater needs 24 hour maintenance even if only periodic use is anticipated.
* In most cases this heater will not function when in the close proximity of similar model heaters. Often just looking at similar models will cause your heater to become very cold and dysfunctional.
* This heater can be quite volatile under certain conditions.
* You will not be able to plug into the heater anywhere you want to or as often as you would like.
* If you are successful at reproducing similar heaters within your original heater, the original unit will cease to work for you during the actual construction process.
* It will be necessary to occasionally feed the heater at fancy locations to keep it properly functioning.
* There is a 28 day maintenance interval that is difficult to ignore.
* As they age these heaters may develop an odd rhythmic rattling sound at night, uncontrollable temperature spikes anytime, and occasional odd smells.
* If you should foolishly decide to use another heater when visiting other locations learn to sleep with one eye open.

Hope this does some good.:smirk: AP/vic
Will a larger inverter solve any of these reliability concerns?:laughing:
 

Zach Woods

New member
Thanks for all the helpful responses!

The hairdryer, microwave and electric blanket were just bribes to get my girlfriend out of a hotel.
Also I figured about 10-20% of the time I would have access to 110V.
As a builder who does super efficent homes we have had good luck with all electric homes (with PV solar).
Hello rvan -

Bit of a highjack on the thread - sorry in advance . . .

Where are you building your all electric homes? I am curious in what parts of the world they are working.

Thanks,

Zach
 

rvan

New member
Hello rvan -

Bit of a highjack on the thread - sorry in advance . . .

Where are you building your all electric homes? I am curious in what parts of the world they are working.

Thanks,

Zach
Boulder, Colorado. We have found with with small homes, passive solar, super insulation, solar PV and solar DHW, that having the additional heat needs provided by electric (300-400Kwh / month x 4 months of heating) is less expensive than paying for gas meter service charge ($18/month) for 12 months. Plus the simplicity of only one fuel with no venting (which was my hope for a RV).
 

gregowski

Member
RVan -

If you're interested, and want to check out a local conversion, I'm also in Boulder, CO, and recently finished converting our 2008 hi-roof 144" diesel Sprinter cargo van to an RV. Ours is electric and diesel, no propane system, all electric power provided by 2 130W solar panels, 12V fridge, diesel cooktop/heater (Wallas 85DU/270), sleeps 4 - as light and small as we could make it, and still sleep 4.

I'd also be interested in talking with you about the homes you've been building, very interested in passive and active solar technologies for housing.
 

miles

New member
thks for nice informative thread. I'm also looking at an all-electric conversion yet everyone has told me i can't do it without propane for heating - the diesel furnance seems to solve that problem. but I have a few questions:

1) I assume the diesel still needs to be ventilated - how is this done ?

2) to run the furnace, does the engine have to run ? or does it just feed off the fuel tank ? - is there any noise or pollution problem - especially if in nat park campground ?

2a) can the diesel furnace be used for a hot shower ? (plan to put in shower stall)
3) how many batteries are recommended ? where do you recommend they be placed ? How is it all being switched between alternator, solar, and outside hookup ?

4) most batteries seemed to be sized in amp-hrs yet most devices are in watts - is it correct to figure a microwave like (1500 / 110) * (7 mins / 60) = about 15 amp hrs ? are there any tables for common RV device loads ?

5) I never realized about the 12v laptop chargers and even electric blanket - thks for ideas

ps) many of you seem to have the 144 - I'm wondering if the 144 will be big enough for several week business road trips with convert bed / seat/table, small workspace for software development, small bath, shower stall, and for kitchen, just need a small fridge and microwave - the 144 seems so much easier to drive, park but wondering if its workable for anything more than a short trip.

thks for any info. also is there a wiki for all this great info ?
 

Zach Woods

New member
thks for nice informative thread. I'm also looking at an all-electric conversion yet everyone has told me i can't do it without propane for heating - the diesel furnance seems to solve that problem. but I have a few questions:

1) I assume the diesel still needs to be ventilated - how is this done ?
Hello miles -

I'll answer when I can and leave the other questions to others with more know-how. There are four basic categories of diesel heaters for sprinters:

a - engine coolant diesel heaters (factory option)

b - hydronic diesel heaters to heat passenger compartment (factory option)

c - airtronic diesel heaters to heat passenger compartment (factory option - I think)

d - any of the above and other options as aftermarket device

The factory option diesel heaters are all mounted outside of the passenger compartment and all vent themselves via exhaust pipe and by their location outside the passenger compartment. Some folks will install diesel heaters inside the passenger compartment but often within an airtight box with venting to the outside.

2) to run the furnace, does the engine have to run ? or does it just feed off the fuel tank ? - is there any noise or pollution problem - especially if in nat park campground ?
Depending on how it is installed / configured the diesel heater may or may not run with or without the engine running. They usually are fed from the main diesel fuel tank. They do produce some noticeable exhaust fumes but are not that bad - they sound a bit like a tiny jet engine but are fairly quiet and not obnoxious. I have not heard of any rules against their use in a National Park Campground but have never looked into this.

2a) can the diesel furnace be used for a hot shower ? (plan to put in shower stall)
Folks have talked about using a hydronic diesel heater with some form of heat exchanger to heat water for use in a shower or otherwise - should be pretty straightforward. An airtronic would likely be pretty in-efficient if used in this way.

3) how many batteries are recommended ? where do you recommend they be placed ? How is it all being switched between alternator, solar, and outside hookup ?
Some of the factory installed systems make do with just the starting battery. The heater is designed to stop running when the battery charge drops below a certain level or when the diesel fuel level drops below a certain level so you shouldn't be able to strand yourself with a well-designed system.

4) most batteries seemed to be sized in amp-hrs yet most devices are in watts - is it correct to figure a microwave like (1500 / 110) * (7 mins / 60) = about 15 amp hrs ? are there any tables for common RV device loads ?
Others will have to answer #4 for you.

ps) many of you seem to have the 144 - I'm wondering if the 144 will be big enough for several week business road trips with convert bed / seat/table, small workspace for software development, small bath, shower stall, and for kitchen, just need a small fridge and microwave - the 144 seems so much easier to drive, park but wondering if its workable for anything more than a short trip.
Depends on what you find comfortable. We have an Airstream Sprinter Westfalia (based on a 140 T1N but with a high fibreglass roof) and have traveled for a month or more with two adults, one baby and three dogs. We were very comfortable. I know of someone else that has traveled for a month or more in a similar Westfalia with 4 adults and 3 dogs (maybe there was 1 more or less dog, I can't remember).

thks for any info. also is there a wiki for all this great info ?
Check out the Sprinter-Wiki associated with this forum: https://sprinter-source.com/wiki. It is by no means complete but folks are working to get more and more information into it all the time.

You should also definitely try a search here on the Sprinter-Forum for any of the topics or terms I mention above or that you have questions about: https://sprinter-source.com/forums/search.php. The search capability here is very good and there are many posts that address questions not unlike yours above!

Zach
 

d_bertko

Active member
thks for nice informative thread. I'm also looking at an all-electric conversion yet everyone has told me i can't do it without propane for heating - the diesel furnance seems to solve that problem. but I have a few questions:

1) I assume the diesel still needs to be ventilated - how is this done ?
The Airtronic d2 that I have is a closed system. A heat exchanger provides the warmed air while the furnace uses outside air supply and exhaust. Fairly quiet inside and outside but not silent.

2) to run the furnace, does the engine have to run ? or does it just feed off the fuel tank ? - is there any noise or pollution problem - especially if in nat park campground ?
Mine is located amidship and it feeds directly off the main fuel tank. Much quieter than a gen set.

2a) can the diesel furnace be used for a hot shower ? (plan to put in shower stall)
Mine can't. But there are plenty of ways to make water hot. We use a PowerShower, a 5 gal bucket with a 12v shower wand. We need one tea kettle of boiling water added to ambient water to make 1.5-2 gals of shower water. It would not be a problem to make more but using the wand conserves a lot of water even with a full shampoo. Our setup uses a homesewn shower sock off the back doors when it is nice out. Becomes an aisle shower in cold weather. Minimal storage room needed.

3) how many batteries are recommended ? where do you recommend they be placed ? How is it all being switched between alternator, solar, and outside hookup ?
My inverter/charger/programmable display Prosine 2.0 with a 420 ah bank is a popular size. A 2000w psw inverter gives you essentially a stickhouse outlet. Xantrex recommends 400 ah for that size inverter. The integration includes an auto transfer switch for shore power, a battery temp sensor to allow really fast recharge rates, and an extremely useful display. This bank size works great for 24hr low draws like the Engel fridge and short high amp draws like the micro.

4) most batteries seemed to be sized in amp-hrs yet most devices are in watts - is it correct to figure a microwave like (1500 / 110) * (7 mins / 60) = about 15 amp hrs ? are there any tables for common RV device loads ?Furnaces and fridges operate on a duty cycle that depends on conditions. Most other devices can be calculated like your microwave example. High draws from small battery banks require some derating of listed battery ah's. And a small bank takes longer to restore a kw-hr into than a larger bank. Efficient lighting and devices are helpful for boondocking. Bank size is relatively unimportant for always-shore-power campers.

5) I never realized about the 12v laptop chargers and even electric blanket - thks for ideas

ps) many of you seem to have the 144 - I'm wondering if the 144 will be big enough for several week business road trips with convert bed / seat/table, small workspace for software development, small bath, shower stall, and for kitchen, just need a small fridge and microwave - the 144 seems so much easier to drive, park but wondering if its workable for anything more than a short trip.
Our 158" is very nimble on the road. I do live in a dense city and parallel park it on the street every night without major difficulty. More room is always appreciated. Very happy to have no installed shower for the extra room. The van feels much roomier when I traveling alone with the single bed sofa instead of the double for the two of us. A 144 would be a lot tighter to spend a few weeks in.

thks for any info. also is there a wiki for all this great info ?
Dan
 

cedarsanctum

re: Member
Ours is electric and diesel, no propane system, all electric power provided by 2 130W solar panels, 12V fridge, diesel cooktop/heater (Wallas 85DU/270), sleeps 4 - as light and small as we could make it, and still sleep 4.
How do you like the Wallas Stove/heater? Does it heat the van sufficiently? How did you exhaust it? Do you have any photos?

I am embarrassed to admit i have had this very stove installed in the counter of our Sprinter, and have not connected it or run it yet. This expensive item has been pushed to the back burner of my huge project list far too many times. I want to run the exhaust through the floor, but need to fabricate the exhaust fitting to go through the floor.

We've been using one 130W solar panel with great success, as long as electric demands are kept small. The Waeco 12V fridge sees to that.

Jef
 

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