76 Renewable Diesel

[borabora]

The topic of renewable diesel made from biomass has been covered here only briefly without much of a conclusion. My 76 station is now offering it and claims that it is safe for all vehicles. They also claim that it has higher cetane values.

Is anybody using it? Any issues or benefits? Any opinions?

I have 100% confidence in chemical engineers being able to turn biomass and McDonalds fry oil into safe diesel given a reasonable process budget. But I am also 100% confident that oil companies will cut every possible corner to make an extra penny on every gallon of diesel delivered.

 

[OrioN]

McDonald's already recycles their fry oil.... into cheese, McFlurry's and shakes.

 

[WinnieView1]

Is it approved by the Germans?

What's today's price for a gallon?

Do you want fries with that, or at least the smell of them cooking?

 

[sailquik]

borabora,
Interesting play on words by the media folks at Union 76!
RENEWABLE Diesel Fuel?
In what way is it "renewable".
Yes, the farmers can grow crops that are broken down chemically and electrically to
turn it into BIOMASS Diesel fuel, but if you read between the lines, it may take significantly more energy to produce a gallon of biomass diesel than using the by products of petroleum cracking to produce the regular dino/petroleum diesel fuel.
Once you burn through that gallon of "RENEWABLE Diesel, it's gone.
To "RENEW it takes the farmer using diesel powered farm equipment to plow the fields, plant the biomass crops, harvest the biomass crops, ship the crops to a conversion plant, and then it takes chemicals and electricity to turn the biomass into a fuel that you can use in your Sprinter.
Oh, but wait, Mercedes Benz has been very clear that any fuel with > 20% biomass is not acceptable/good for your Sprinter's emission systems components.
As I said, interesting turn of a phrase.
Roger

 

[irvingj]

Yes, I think "Renewable" is the 21st-century equivalent of the 70's ubiquitous "Natural" descriptive... a good PR phrase/word...

 

[borabora]

Well, I guess no one has more specific information on the actual product.
Since this is 76 and not a bunch of hippies processing fry oil I figure it is made to some standards but who knows what they are. You'd think that big fleets (Amazon only drives Ford here in Northern California but that might be regional) would have an opinion.
In my town I have basically three diesel choices: Valero (which I use), 76 (which I now feel dubious about) and non name (which I avoid). I prefer to stick with big brands just because the van is costing enough in repairs and maintenance and I don't need self-inflicted problems to potentially save a couple of bucks.

 

[220629]

Well, I guess no one has more specific information on the actual product.
...

I know that I don't have any 76 info.

If you care what Mercedes says you wouldn't use biomass fuel. Note the right hand comments.




vic

Added:

BUT....

Some .gov biofuel information. First paragraph quoted only. Refer to the eia.gov information link for the complete information.

Biofuels explained
Biomass-based diesel fuels

Renewable diesel is a biomass-based diesel fuel
Renewable diesel fuel, sometimes called green diesel, is a biofuel that is chemically the same as petroleum diesel fuel. Renewable diesel meets the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) specification ASTM D975 for petroleum diesel and may be used in existing petroleum pipelines, storage tanks, and diesel engines. It can be produced from cellulosic biomass materials such as crop residues, wood and sawdust, and switchgrass, and it qualifies as an advanced biofuel under the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) Program.

Biofuels explained - use and supply - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

U.S. renewable diesel summary.

www.eia.gov

My comment.
Mercedes often refers to the ASTM standards when describing diesel fuel. Products that meet the ASTM D975 diesel fuel standard is D975 diesel regardless of what base stocks are used. Diesel fuel classed as D975 that is derived from biomass feedstock is no longer ASTM D6751 fuel. It has been processed into ASTM D975.

Mercedes Brochure
(2014?)
https://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/biodiesel_Brochure5.pdf

 

[borabora]

I know that I don't have any 76 info.

If you care what Mercedes says you wouldn't use biomass fuel. Note the right hand comments.

View attachment 192044


vic

Yes, I have seen those restrictions before.
Of course 76 claims that the fuel is safe for all diesel vehicle. To do so without some evidence would seem risky for a big oil company. So I am wondering if this is a different type of fuel than the traditional type of bio-diesel.

 

[220629]

Yes, I have seen those restrictions before.
Of course 76 claims that the fuel is safe for all diesel vehicle. To do so without some evidence would seem risky for a big oil company. So I am wondering if this is a different type of fuel than the traditional type of bio-diesel.

It's probably fine, but it likely will have some of the issues that are associated with the use of "regular" biofuel blends ASTM D6751.

Fuel Regulations in the USA Concerning Biodiesel

Regular Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel meeting ASTM D975 can contain biodiesel up to 5%.
ULSD fuel meeting ASTM specification D7467 can contain biodiesel from 6% to 20%.
Biodiesel that is used for blending and straight biodiesel (100% or B100) must fulfill ASTM D6751. All BlueTEC® diesel vehicles of Mercedes-Benz cannot use straight biodiesel due to its lower energy content compared to conventional diesel, which does not allow for thorough particulate trap regeneration.
Additionally, B100 and B20 increase the risk of harmful oil dilution. Due to quality variations, B20 is generally not suitable for passenger car and light duty truck applications in Mercedes-Benz vehicles. B100 must never be used in Mercedes-Benz vehicles.
[Comment: "Due to quality variations", but that is not a problem with commercially produced properly blended ASTM D6751 fuel stock.]

*********

It may be fine. Many owners are fastidious about proper fluids being used with their Sprinters. Fuel is a fluid.

vic

Post #7 here.

Commercial Bio-Fuel and Your Sprinter

B5, B-5, B20, B-20 bio-fuel, biofuel, bio fuel, bio-diesel, biodiesel, bio diesel The concerns about bio-fuel come up here often. Using commercially available diesel fuel that is produced to ASTM standards will not automatically void your warranty and will certainly not immediately destroy your...

sprinter-source.com

https://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/biodiesel_Brochure5.pdf

Added:

Added:

Some .gov biofuel information. First paragraph quoted only. Refer to the eia.gov information link for the complete information.

Biofuels explained
Biomass-based diesel fuels

Renewable diesel is a biomass-based diesel fuel
Renewable diesel fuel, sometimes called green diesel, is a biofuel that is chemically the same as petroleum diesel fuel. Renewable diesel meets the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) specification ASTM D975 for petroleum diesel and may be used in existing petroleum pipelines, storage tanks, and diesel engines. It can be produced from cellulosic biomass materials such as crop residues, wood and sawdust, and switchgrass, and it qualifies as an advanced biofuel under the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) Program.

Biofuels explained - use and supply - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

U.S. renewable diesel summary.

www.eia.gov

My comment.
Mercedes often refers to the ASTM standards when describing diesel fuel. Products that meet the ASTM D975 diesel fuel standard is D975 diesel regardless of what base stocks are used. Diesel fuel classed as D975 that is derived from biomass feedstock is no longer ASTM D6751 fuel. It has been processed into ASTM D975.

Mercedes Brochure
(2014?)
https://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/biodiesel_Brochure5.pdf

 

[borabora]

And then there is this. They not only claim that renewable diesel won't harm your van but essentially claim that it is better for your truck or van and will stress the DPF less. Not that I automatically believe them but those are interesting claims!

Everything You Need to Know About Renewable Diesel

A cleaner burning, next-generation synthetic fuel, renewable diesel use and demand is growing.

www.worktruckonline.com

 

[220629]

Biofuels explained - Biodiesel, renewable diesel, and other biofuels - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Overview of what biodiesel, renewable diesel, and other non-fuel ethanol biofuels are and what they are made from.

www.eia.gov

History of Biodiesel Fuel · Pacific Biodiesel

HISTORY OF BIODIESEL FUEL Developed in the 1890s by inventor Rudolph Diesel, the diesel engine has become the engine of choice for power, reliability, and high fuel economy, worldwide. Early experimenters on vegetable oil fuels included the French government and Dr. Diesel himself, who...

www.biodiesel.com

 

[4wheeldog]

About 3 years ago I read an SAE paper put out by a Chevron tech about the biodiesel component of the diesel they sell. It made a good case that is it possible to refine biodiesel in such a manner as to make it effectively identical to dino diesel, with perhaps just a touch more lubricity. And that is what Chevron does.
The question is whether you are actually getting Chevron supplied diesel when you buy it at a station in the middle of nowhere. Because like gasoline, it often comes from the nearest refinery, regardless of brand.

 

[jcmadeintheshade@gmail.com]

Locally in north coastal San Diego county a couple of major label stations have switched from Arco and 76 to Chevron.

Another disappointment is that another Chevron station showed B20. They used to be reliable as a source for B5.

The choices for avoiding B5 to B20 are becoming harder to find, and no one at the stations when asked has a clue.

This does not portend well for the future, around here anyway.

Mohsen is a local distributor for many outlets and they have their own stations, one of which I filled up at last week in Oceanside. As per the usual, no one knew what % of bio content was in the diesel they were selling.

Flying blind again could be a regular thing. Crossing our fingers is about all we have to rely upon. Rant over.

 

[Roamers]

It is often an unknown what you are actually getting since employees often don't know. I travel Sapp Bros territory often and asked and received a list of what their different stations pump. The list showed a station in NE had "up to B20", pumps were labeled as that, but since I found nothing better, I pumped. I went in and talked to the manager and indicated a lot of us Sprinter owners prefer <5%. He indicated they deliver <5%, but label pump 6-20 in case a load gets dumped in by accident. Thus the reason I always end up home with an empty tank after a trip where I am confident in what is coming out of the pump.

 

[220629]

When using the typical commercial fuel stations in the Buffalo NY area you would need to seek out something other than normal ASTM D975 less than 5% diesel fuel. I haven't noticed a 20% sticker anywhere. I realize that is not true in some specific areas of the USA.

vic

 

[Roamers]

Buffalo NY

Now all you need is reasonable prices!

 

[220629]

Now all you need is reasonable prices!

$2.89 just the other day. Kinda middle of the road as prices go.

At one time Pennsylvania had better pricing vs NYS. That was before PA instituted some sort of an annual tax increase on diesel fuel. I now avoid buying diesel in PA unless it can't be avoided.

How much do motor fuel tax rates differ across states?
In addition to the 18.4 cents per gallon federal tax on motor fuels, all states and the District of Columbia tax motor fuels. Per gallon gas tax rates range from 8.95 cents in Alaska to 57.6 cents in Pennsylvania. In addition to Alaska, six other states have per gallon gas tax rates below 20 cents: Arizona, Hawaii, Mississippi, Missouri, and New Mexico. After Pennsylvania, the next-highest per gallon tax rates are in California (55.5 cents), New Jersey (50.7 cents), and Washington (49.4 cents). These rates include any state excise taxes on gas plus any related taxes and fees that the consumer pays at the pump, such as applicable environmental or inspection fees.

How do state and local motor fuel taxes work?

www.urban.org

vic

 

[Roamers]

I stand corrected 2.89 is about .60 less than I was expecting for diesel based on what we have and the last price differential I saw in May in Central NY.

 

[borabora]

Neste was the first type of renewable diesel brought to market as far as I know and 76 presumably uses the same or very similar process. Neste claims that Mercedes has approved their fuel for Sprinters. See below:

Approved by the leading manufacturers

See if your OEM has approved Neste MY Renewable Diesel

www.neste.com

76 and other sources claim less stress on DPF and significant reduction is emissions (I guess those go hand in hand). If I believe all this then it makes me want to use nothing else but renewable diesel rather than avoid it!

Has anybody used it and has any experience with it for more than one tank full?

People here are still mixing up this product with conventional bio-diesel mixes. Based on everything out there that's just not a fair comparison. Not the same stuff. I'd like to keep this discussion alive in the hope that someone with real expertise pipes in. I think this topic is extremely relevant to all diesel Sprinter owners in the US.

 

[Rocksnsalt]

Locally in north coastal San Diego county a couple of major label stations have switched from Arco and 76 to Chevron.

Another disappointment is that another Chevron station showed B20. They used to be reliable as a source for B5.

The choices for avoiding B5 to B20 are becoming harder to find, and no one at the stations when asked has a clue.

This does not portend well for the future, around here anyway.

Mohsen is a local distributor for many outlets and they have their own stations, one of which I filled up at last week in Oceanside. As per the usual, no one knew what % of bio content was in the diesel they were selling.

Flying blind again could be a regular thing. Crossing our fingers is about all we have to rely upon. Rant over.

I used to buy diesel at Mohsen on coast hwy in O‘crime… until one day a few mos back it had the bio label. No percentage indicated, wtf. So now I typically fill up at the Arco on Palomar.

Re a comment a few up, while it is true some “branded“ fuels will come from the closest refinery, often “the brand” will have their own blend tank at the generic (or other branded) refinery, so the additives etc are added to meet “brand” spec. The drivers access or card code at the loading rack will open the proper valve to feed the particular loading nozzle with the spec product. At least that’s how it used to work in certain CA refineries. And regardless, if a major brand is buying from a generic refiner, the brand has confidence in products the refiner is producing. So can consumers.