Click no start- [and other no start] tips.

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
I would check that female terminal in the connector for tension. You can use a needle of the correct size. Compare it to the other terminals in the connector. If its weak, that can cause intermittent no start.

I would also make sure your ECM grounds (above the battery in the engine compartment) are clean and free of corrosion.
 

slimjimbest

New member
This has been a helpful thread, thanks!

2004 Dodge Sprinter, 2500. Intermittent no-click, no-start. 2 problems.

Mechanic found when he pressed on Fuse Box #1 it clicked and started. Got a new one at Portland M-B dealer ($200). Dealer was surprised they had 2 in stock and commented that people must be finding them a problem out there.

Still intermittent. Mechanic found that driving ECM pin#44 to ground started it. Suggested we replace the ECM ($2500). Didn't. Left the shop with a hope and prayer. Got a AWG 22 wire tap at AutoZone ($5). Sure enough, no-click no-start parked 17 miles off-grid in Eugene. Wire-tapped the yellow-blue wire, pin#44. Now when I get no-click no-start I touch the wire tap extension to the chassis ground on a bolt in the door hinge and it starts every time. So MacGyver! But a butt-saver.

I'm in way over my head. $2500 ECM replacement? Or is there something else not driving pin#44 to ground?
Thanks for your thoughts and experience!
Thanks, ECU, for the off-line conversation. Really helpful!
We're wondering if we can crowd-source an answer to the following question:

What are all the conditions the ECM requires at start up to send ECM pin44 to ground?
 

slimjimbest

New member
Thanks, ECU, for the off-line conversation. Really helpful!
We're wondering if we can crowd-source an answer to the following question:

What are all the conditions the ECM requires at start up to send ECM pin44 to ground?
I'll start.
Signal that vehicle is in park.

I read in this thread that someone had a dash indicator saying they were in park but found a tie wrap sometimes held up the cable mechanically keeping them from starting.
 

jcn3

New member
Hi everyone, any new info on this ECM #44 ground? I'm having a similar intermittent click no start on my 2005 T1N as well, where the radiator fan turns on and the glow plug light stays illuminated. Can't seem to find a pattern of when it happens, sometimes after lots of short trips, other times after a long drive and one stop. Mostly when it's hotter than usual outside.

According to Eric's first test, battery is good. I haven't had a chance to run the second test as the issue hasn't come back since I've read this post. I did record some electrical aspects of the female pins of the starter relay last time it wasn't working:

87 Pin gets 12 volts at 3 position
86 Pin gets 0 volts at 2 or 3 position
30 Pin i couldn't measure any voltage but i may need a smaller lead according to previous comments
85 Pin does not have continuity with ground and has 4 volts

As some others have pointed out, tapping near the ignition switch on Fues Box #1 seems to cut the fan and glow plug light off, and if I haven't already drained the battery from multiple start attempts, it can usually start up from this. If I did drain the battery, getting a jump takes care of my issue after tapping on FB #1. Removing the negative battery terminal ring for a few minutes and placing back on seems to help sometimes as well.

I suspect there may be some issue with a loose wire in the ignition switch since the issue is intermittent and a tap usually helps. I did have one instance where I did not tap to get it working, but instead was testing voltage at the relay and I think I somehow brought 12 volts over to the 86 Pin through probing Pin 87 the other with power, because I was able to start after this without the tap. Judging by this thread, it seems that power from the ignition switch is brought to both the fuel pump relay and the starter relay, so I'm thinking this may be the the best place to look. Any tips on what I should be looking for at the ignition switch?
 

johnplyler

2020 4x4
To solve the “Click no start” problem we need to divide into groups of problems.


The first group could be the Battery and Charging System.
The second group could be Security and Relays.
The third group could be the Starter and its Solenoid.


Initial Testing
To find out which group you have, test by turning on the interior light , turn the key if the light goes out it is the first group Battery and Charging system.

If the light stays on, next test by running a wire from the small terminal on the starter.
To do this you should make up a test lead. Get a 2m or 8 feet length of hook-up wire. Connect a small alligator clip to each end. Connect one clip to the small terminal on the starter and the other end to a multimeter lead. The other meter lead must go to earth (ground/negative). The seat mounting bolts are a good earth.

With the meter resting on the seat and switched to 20 volts DC, turn the key. If the meter reads 12 volts you have good security (SKREEM) and relays circuit so go to the third group. If you do not get the 12 volts the problem is in the second group, Security and Relays.

Background information.

Most electrical problems are caused by poor electrical connections. To understand why we need some basic science.

All metals except gold oxidize when exposed to moisture. Oxides are good insulators. MB uses good quality connectors with rubber seals but a little bit of moisture still gets in. The more important pins are silver plated. If a plug has provision for 6 wires but only has 5 fitted then there should be a rubber plug in the 6th hole to keep moisture out. Mixing metals for connections makes things worse. Cheap pins are tin pated steel, better ones are tin plated brass, the next up is plated silver. The best are gold plated.

If something is not working there is a good chance it is not properly connected to the loom. If you have a bad connection the ECU cannot see the device and chucks a code. If you then scan the vehicle you will get a message like XYZ is faulty when in fact it is not, but is just not connected.

Things like relays are hard to keep free of moisture so they are placed under seats or in closed boxes.

High current circuits have an added problem. A small amount of oxide causes some resistance this resistance causes the connection to get hot which greatly accelerates oxidation. This is very noticeable on battery terminals. When a heavy cable with a copper crimp is bolted to steel, because you have mixed metals you get oxide problems.

This is common when a negative battery cable is earthed. All is not lost if you keep moisture out with some form of moisture barrier like lanolin or silicone. If the oxidization occurs inside a crimp you can remove the oxide with something like soldering flux, the function of fluxes is to get in under oxide layers. If you clean a crimp with flux you must then wash and dry it quickly then soft solder it. Washing your engine with water is a sure way of generating many faults. Using a steam cleaner on any modern engine can lead to a very big repair job.

Battery and Charging System
If you have a problem in the first group you must decide if the battery is flat or there is a cable problem.

To test the battery connect a multimeter directly to the battery terminals it will normally show 12.6 volts. Get someone to turn the key. If the battery voltage drops to say 9 volts then your battery is not charged. If the voltage stays up around 12 then you have a cable problem.

To find the cable problem place one meter lead on the negative terminal and the other lead on a shiny metal part of the engine, turn the key again, if the meter reads less than 1 volt your battery earth is OK if it reads say 4 volts then your earth cable is the problem.

If your battery earth is good then test the positive terminal connection. To do this place one lead on the positive terminal directly and the other lead on the copper lug of the heavy wire. With key on, once again if it reads less than 1 volt you are Ok if it reads more your positive terminal is corroded.

By now you know if it’s the battery or the cables. If the battery is flat then we have to decide if it’s a faulty battery or a charging problem.

A common problem with Sprinters is the cable that connects the alternator to the battery. To test this it is best to get the engine running, so best to charge up the battery with a good 3 stage charger. If you only have an old style battery charger then it is prudent to disconnect the earth terminal on the battery to charge it by connecting directly to the terminals.

Once you have it charged and reconnected, start the engine. To decide if it is charging the battery use your multimeter to measure the battery voltage, it should be above 12.6 and slowly rising. A bit of fast idling should bring the voltage up to over 13volts. If this voltage is not rising over 12.6 [or less] then you may have a potential cable problem.

To test this connect your multimeter to the large terminal on the alternator. While the engine is running, with the voltmeter negative lead earthed your meter may show the same voltage as the battery. If it does you have an alternator problem. If the voltage at the large connection of the alternator is more like 14 volts then you have a cable problem.

If you have a cable problem then remove the earth lead on the battery first (for safety), then remove the cable. When you have the cable out, look for discolouration of the wire going into the crimps. If you find that, repair as in the discussion of corrosion above. Note there can be a heavy fuse in the cable under the engine, this is unlikely to be blown but it could be corroded.

At this stage we should consider the glow plugs. If when you turn the key the glow plugs come on it tells us that the ECU is happy for the engine to start but the start relay is not being energized. If we keep trying to find the fault turning the key many times then we risk flattening the battery because the glow plugs draw a lot of power. We are also shortening the life of the glow plugs by constantly heating them. If you have this situation it is best to unplug the glow plug controller, if you can find the glow plug fuse then pull it. If you are not able to find the fuse you can unplug the small 4 pin plug that connects the controller to the ECU.

Security and Relays
If the problem is in the second group then we have to work through the cct [aka circuit] to find the cause.

The starting circuit is complex for safety and security. The way it works is to first establish if you have a valid key. that verified, it checks to see if the transmission is in neutral, then the ECU checks if the basic parameters of the engine are safe to start. If all that is OK then the start relay is energized.

If you can find your start relay using the excellent information that is posted on this forum then you can feel the relay to find out if it is being energized.
Fuse Block #2 Fuse Map 2004
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24683

If it’s not or you are not sure, pull the relay out and look at the pins, if they are clean and shiny then we have to look at the voltages on the pins in the relay socket. Pin 30 should have 12 volts, pin 87 is the lead to the starter and will show 0 volts. The other pins 85 and 86 will have voltage across them when the ECU is trying to start. To verify this place your meter leads in 85and 86 turn the key. If you get nothing then the ECU is not telling the relay to start. If you get volts when the key is turned then the relay is being energized but is not sending the voltage to the starter, this could be a faulty relay or the wire to the starter is open.

Starter and its Solenoid

If the starter is faulty we need to pull it out and test it. Never ever short out the big terminals it is dangerous and proves nothing. The other thing to never ever do is hit the starter with a hammer. This practice started in the days of crude stator wiring, The modern starter has a permanent magnet stator that is made from very strong rare earth magnets these magnets are reliable but brittle. Eric.
sounds like a bunch of shitf
 
To solve the “Click no start” problem we need to divide into groups of problems.


The first group could be the Battery and Charging System.
The second group could be Security and Relays.
The third group could be the Starter and its Solenoid.


Initial Testing
To find out which group you have, test by turning on the interior light , turn the key if the light goes out it is the first group Battery and Charging system.

If the light stays on, next test by running a wire from the small terminal on the starter.
To do this you should make up a test lead. Get a 2m or 8 feet length of hook-up wire. Connect a small alligator clip to each end. Connect one clip to the small terminal on the starter and the other end to a multimeter lead. The other meter lead must go to earth (ground/negative). The seat mounting bolts are a good earth.

With the meter resting on the seat and switched to 20 volts DC, turn the key. If the meter reads 12 volts you have good security (SKREEM) and relays circuit so go to the third group. If you do not get the 12 volts the problem is in the second group, Security and Relays.

Background information.

Most electrical problems are caused by poor electrical connections. To understand why we need some basic science.

All metals except gold oxidize when exposed to moisture. Oxides are good insulators. MB uses good quality connectors with rubber seals but a little bit of moisture still gets in. The more important pins are silver plated. If a plug has provision for 6 wires but only has 5 fitted then there should be a rubber plug in the 6th hole to keep moisture out. Mixing metals for connections makes things worse. Cheap pins are tin pated steel, better ones are tin plated brass, the next up is plated silver. The best are gold plated.

If something is not working there is a good chance it is not properly connected to the loom. If you have a bad connection the ECU cannot see the device and chucks a code. If you then scan the vehicle you will get a message like XYZ is faulty when in fact it is not, but is just not connected.

Things like relays are hard to keep free of moisture so they are placed under seats or in closed boxes.

High current circuits have an added problem. A small amount of oxide causes some resistance this resistance causes the connection to get hot which greatly accelerates oxidation. This is very noticeable on battery terminals. When a heavy cable with a copper crimp is bolted to steel, because you have mixed metals you get oxide problems.

This is common when a negative battery cable is earthed. All is not lost if you keep moisture out with some form of moisture barrier like lanolin or silicone. If the oxidization occurs inside a crimp you can remove the oxide with something like soldering flux, the function of fluxes is to get in under oxide layers. If you clean a crimp with flux you must then wash and dry it quickly then soft solder it. Washing your engine with water is a sure way of generating many faults. Using a steam cleaner on any modern engine can lead to a very big repair job.

Battery and Charging System
If you have a problem in the first group you must decide if the battery is flat or there is a cable problem.

To test the battery connect a multimeter directly to the battery terminals it will normally show 12.6 volts. Get someone to turn the key. If the battery voltage drops to say 9 volts then your battery is not charged. If the voltage stays up around 12 then you have a cable problem.

To find the cable problem place one meter lead on the negative terminal and the other lead on a shiny metal part of the engine, turn the key again, if the meter reads less than 1 volt your battery earth is OK if it reads say 4 volts then your earth cable is the problem.

If your battery earth is good then test the positive terminal connection. To do this place one lead on the positive terminal directly and the other lead on the copper lug of the heavy wire. With key on, once again if it reads less than 1 volt you are Ok if it reads more your positive terminal is corroded.

By now you know if it’s the battery or the cables. If the battery is flat then we have to decide if it’s a faulty battery or a charging problem.

A common problem with Sprinters is the cable that connects the alternator to the battery. To test this it is best to get the engine running, so best to charge up the battery with a good 3 stage charger. If you only have an old style battery charger then it is prudent to disconnect the earth terminal on the battery to charge it by connecting directly to the terminals.

Once you have it charged and reconnected, start the engine. To decide if it is charging the battery use your multimeter to measure the battery voltage, it should be above 12.6 and slowly rising. A bit of fast idling should bring the voltage up to over 13volts. If this voltage is not rising over 12.6 [or less] then you may have a potential cable problem.

To test this connect your multimeter to the large terminal on the alternator. While the engine is running, with the voltmeter negative lead earthed your meter may show the same voltage as the battery. If it does you have an alternator problem. If the voltage at the large connection of the alternator is more like 14 volts then you have a cable problem.

If you have a cable problem then remove the earth lead on the battery first (for safety), then remove the cable. When you have the cable out, look for discolouration of the wire going into the crimps. If you find that, repair as in the discussion of corrosion above. Note there can be a heavy fuse in the cable under the engine, this is unlikely to be blown but it could be corroded.

At this stage we should consider the glow plugs. If when you turn the key the glow plugs come on it tells us that the ECU is happy for the engine to start but the start relay is not being energized. If we keep trying to find the fault turning the key many times then we risk flattening the battery because the glow plugs draw a lot of power. We are also shortening the life of the glow plugs by constantly heating them. If you have this situation it is best to unplug the glow plug controller, if you can find the glow plug fuse then pull it. If you are not able to find the fuse you can unplug the small 4 pin plug that connects the controller to the ECU.

Security and Relays
If the problem is in the second group then we have to work through the cct [aka circuit] to find the cause.

The starting circuit is complex for safety and security. The way it works is to first establish if you have a valid key. that verified, it checks to see if the transmission is in neutral, then the ECU checks if the basic parameters of the engine are safe to start. If all that is OK then the start relay is energized.

If you can find your start relay using the excellent information that is posted on this forum then you can feel the relay to find out if it is being energized.
Fuse Block #2 Fuse Map 2004
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24683

If it’s not or you are not sure, pull the relay out and look at the pins, if they are clean and shiny then we have to look at the voltages on the pins in the relay socket. Pin 30 should have 12 volts, pin 87 is the lead to the starter and will show 0 volts. The other pins 85 and 86 will have voltage across them when the ECU is trying to start. To verify this place your meter leads in 85and 86 turn the key. If you get nothing then the ECU is not telling the relay to start. If you get volts when the key is turned then the relay is being energized but is not sending the voltage to the starter, this could be a faulty relay or the wire to the starter is open.

Starter and its Solenoid

If the starter is faulty we need to pull it out and test it. Never ever short out the big terminals it is dangerous and proves nothing. The other thing to never ever do is hit the starter with a hammer. This practice started in the days of crude stator wiring, The modern starter has a permanent magnet stator that is made from very strong rare earth magnets these magnets are reliable but brittle. Eric.
This description of the problem solving process is the most important entry in this forum so far. Haven’t had to work through electrical gremlins before. At least to Mercedes level. Worked at a Mercedes shop for a few yrs but didn’t work on sprinters mostly 300tds and SLs I’m now going to look for all your input here
 
My problem. Van was in storage outside for four years. Went to start it, very slow crank. Changed battery, still slow crank. Towed it home, tried to start it and now no crank. Bought battery charger and topped up new battery, still no crank.

-Replaced ground strap below fuel filter
-Cleaned battery firewall ground connectors
-Fuel relay clicks on ignition position 3, and when I turn to position 2 I hear the starter relay click

ca0f04a06aede753cc934cb139bef20.jpg
Checked voltage of pins on starter relay with battery at 12.2volts. Results:
Pin 86 (right pin) gets 11.5v- 12.1 at ignition pos. 2 and as pos. 3
Pin 85 (left pin) gets 3.5v at ignition pos. 2. 0v at pos. 3
Pin 30 (bottom pin) gets 0 at ignition pos. 2 and gets 0.06v at key turn
Pin 87 (top pin) gets 0v at ignition pos. 2 and 11.5v at pos. 3
The bolded results I don't think are normal? Any thoughts?


Then I confirmed the starter wire (the small one on the starter) is getting 11.87v on ignition pos. 3
Then I confirmed that the large wire is getting 12v.
Then I tried directly connecting small starter terminal the battery to force the starter. Nothing.
I then tested the ground on the fuel filter hose, and it was grounded.
Also, given that the starter was slow cranking before, I believe the circuit is ok.



I had a bunch of stored engine codes. None returned when I cleared them and tried starting again.

60ef4322e73ca4bb54377def349daa0.jpg




I will try to ground the engine to the negative battery terminal and test again, and also retest my starter relay volts again.

But given that the starter terminals both were getting 12v and the starter did nothing, I think the starter has given up.
 

Nic7320

Solera 24S on a 2011 NCV3 chassis
Was this in a very cold and humid climate? Condensation can do a lot of damage.

But also look for tell-tale (or in this case, "tell-tail") scratch marks from rodents.
 
Battery was fully charged this time
Tried grounding negative battery to engine eye hook. nada.

starter relay test results:

ignition position 2:
top pin/pin87 = 0v
right pin/pin86 = 12.5v
bottom pin/pin30 = 0v
left pin/pin85 = 3.35v

ignition position 3:
top pin/pin87 = 12.5v
right pin/pin86 = 12.5v
bottom pin/pin30 = 0v
left pin/pin85 = 0v


Could someone say what on their t1n the starter relay pins read out?
 

Nic7320

Solera 24S on a 2011 NCV3 chassis
starter relay test results:

ignition position 2:
top pin/pin87 = 0v
right pin/pin86 = 12.5v
bottom pin/pin30 = 0v
left pin/pin85 = 3.35v

ignition position 3:
top pin/pin87 = 12.5v
right pin/pin86 = 12.5v
bottom pin/pin30 = 0v
left pin/pin85 = 0v

eb40e155d65ee4f809dd42784e032806-1034100359~2.jpg
Standard automotive relay shown, but somewhat backwards from normal convention where the relay arm sits at rest. Regardless, 87 is normally open contact. 87A is normally closed.

Ignition in Position 3:
85 to 86 = solid 12V. That's good. But then pin 87 to 30 is an open circuit with voltage across the contacts??? It should be closed if there is power on the coil.

Did you actually measure to pin 87A ???

When ignition switch is in Position 2, pin 85 has a very odd reading 3.3V. If the driver is an open collector driver (or open drain MOSFET) that is in the "off" state (high impedance), then the coil itself becomes a pull up to 12V and that pin should go to 12V.

And when the driver circuit is ON (low impedance state on the ECU driver), the ECU should pull that side of the coil all the way down to zero volts.

Something is dragging it down or clamping it to 3.3 volts.
 
Took out the starter, connected directly to battery, nothing. Hopefully the starter is my only culprit but the voltage tests on the relay tell me there may be wire damage somewhere too
 

autostaretx

Erratic Member
Took out the starter, connected directly to battery, nothing. Hopefully the starter is my only culprit but the voltage tests on the relay tell me there may be wire damage somewhere too
The brushes in the starter could be worn out (do you live in a dusty area? Think of the dust as sandpaper)

OH.... where did you connect to the battery?
If you connected to where the Sprinter does, then you *also* need to feed 12v to the smaller pin to energize the starter solenoid.
If it doesn't pull in, the internal contacts do not feed power to the starter (or extend the Bendix gear)

8w-20-06StartFuelRelaywNotes.jpg

The contacts i'm writing about are those just above the (M) in the drawing.
Half of the solenoid's function is to serve as a relay capable of handling BIG currents.

"M" is the starter motor itself.

--dick
 
The brushes in the starter could be worn out (do you live in a dusty area? Think of the dust as sandpaper)

OH.... where did you connect to the battery?
If you connected to where the Sprinter does, then you *also* need to feed 12v to the smaller pin to energize the starter solenoid.
If it doesn't pull in, the internal contacts do not feed power to the starter (or extend the Bendix gear)

View attachment 362696

The contacts i'm writing about are those just above the (M) in the drawing.
Half of the solenoid's function is to serve as a relay capable of handling BIG currents.

"M" is the starter motor itself.

--dick
New starter arrived today and was installed. It cranks fine now. But engine still won't start, throwing crankshaft sensor code.
I am soaking the old one in pb oil and will try to pull it from the top, but it seems stuck. I am dreading having to take the tranny or intake manifold off .
 

govols

Member
So, step one: multi-meter between starter solenoid and seat bolt. Turn key to start= 9.5 volts rather than 12.

Verified battery both with dome light and volt meter. 16.65, try start = 12.0, post start attempt = 12.60 easing up to 12.65 after 30 seconds or so.

I can't get the 16mm bolt loose to clean engine ground, but did run a jumper cable from the negative post on wheel well to engine and still just click.

I guess I'm at skreem and relays?
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
What is the voltage at the solenoid trigger wire (at the starter) during cranking attempts? If its at least 10V, then its not the SKREEM. It could be a sticky solenoid, or high resistance in the relay.

As an alternative you can backprobe the starter relay (under the drivers seat). Probe the wire/terminal going to the starter, and crank the engine, if the relay is closing (you are getting at least some voltage) then its not the ignition switch, ECM, or SKREEM.
 

govols

Member
What is the voltage at the solenoid trigger wire (at the starter) during cranking attempts? If its at least 10V, then its not the SKREEM. It could be a sticky solenoid, or high resistance in the relay.

As an alternative you can backprobe the starter relay (under the drivers seat). Probe the wire/terminal going to the starter, and crank the engine, if the relay is closing (you are getting at least some voltage) then its not the ignition switch, ECM, or SKREEM.
It's 9.5 volts at solenoid upon start attempt.
 

Midwestdrifter

Engineer In Residence
It's 9.5 volts at solenoid upon start attempt.

9.5V at the big wire to the solenoid, or the small one?

If so you need to work backwards to find the voltage drop. Measuring from the battery positive terminal to the solenoid control wire during starting attempt will tell you if most of the voltage drop is on the ground side, or on the 12v side of the circuit.

You can measure across any connections or a length of wire to determine the voltage drop during cranking. It is tedious, but this will let you gradually isolate the source(s).

9.5V should be enough to actuate the solenoid, but giving it a tap with a rubber or wood mallet could help if its stuck. You can also run a jumper directly from the battery positive to the solenoid control terminal to see if the starter will engage with a bit more voltage to the solenoid coil.
 

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